November 24, 2008

Dear Southern Baptist

From the Chairman of the Committee on the Baptist Faith and Message, Adrian Rogers

2. In the context of modern denials of the omniscience, exhaustive foreknowledge, and omnipotence of God, we have reaffirmed the teachings of the Bible and the consistent teaching of our Baptist tradition, as reflected in Article II: "God."
God has all knowledge. He knows all things simultaneously. His knowledge is immediate, without the process of thought, reason, or inference. His foreknowledge of events does not necessarily mean that He predetermined them. He knows the workings of his natural, physical, moral, and spiritual laws which work toward definite ends. Man is free to choose in the light of them, but is responsible for his choices. God knows these choices beforehand, but does not predetermine them. Herschel H. Hobbs, The Baptist Faith and Message (1971), p. 36.

"His foreknowledge of events does not necessarily mean that He predetermined them."
My Jehovah Witness friend says God willfully chooses not to know what our choices are. In fact he says that God does not have that foreknowledge. Adrian Rogers says that God has the foreknowledge but has not predetermined our choices.

Systematic Theology affirms strongly the incommunicable attributes of God. God is without any limitations. He does not submit himself to any limitations. Self-existence and immutability confirms this.

Any thought that denies the ability of God to know or do anything flies in the face of scripture and all who have sought diligently to clarify theology.

Rogers says: "In the context of modern denials of the omniscience, exhaustive foreknowledge, and omnipotence of God, we have reaffirmed the teachings of the Bible and the consistent teaching of our Baptist tradition. . .God has all knowledge. He knows all things simultaneously. His knowledge is immediate, without the process of thought, reason, or inference. " That is a clear concise statement to make.

However his next statement contradicts the first. " His foreknowledge of events does not necessarily mean that He predetermined them. God knows these choices beforehand, but does not predetermine them. " Now he is practically saying the same thing as my Jehovah Witness friend. There are strong similarities of SBC to Jehovah Witness beliefs!

Actually Adrian Rogers knows a fool would be saying what he just said so he acknowledges the source of this absurdity to Herschel H. Hobbs who is dead at this time.

However this absurd and foolish statement has to be said! Why! Why does it have to be said?
Why put the words in the mouth of a dead man! Because this falsehood is the foundation of the next falsehood. "Man is free to choose in the light of them, but is responsible for his choices. God knows these choices beforehand, but does not predetermine them." In order to establish vibrant worldwide evangelism, Baptist tradition has to be disposed and a satisfaction of the demands of modern humanism must take place!

This is the foundation of a false gospel and another gospel foreign to the Bible.


Anonymous said...

By His Omniscience God knows all things.
By His Foreknowledge Giod knows all things because of His Decree and eternal purposed. Nothing comes to pass without God having predetermined it.

We have A God, Who is in full control, Whose plan includes all events and people to fulfill His Purpose to glorify Himself and to secure a bride for His Son.

Dr. Paul W. Foltz

WatchingHISstory said...


What you say is so basic to theology. Years ago it would be required for the student to master this truth at the primary levels. I know that this statement was required at my college for all students, regardless of major study. It was Wesleyan/Pentecostal.

How can a man like Adrian Rogers dispose of this and not have the courage himself to say it, rather he defers to Herschel Hobbs who is dead!

WatchingHISstory said...

Daniel 4:35 (KJV)
"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"

WatchingHISstory said...

There is a God bigger than Adrian's God! In his mind Adrian has fashioned a god who is compattible with free choice and can be grasped by sinners. He is a seeker friendly god. If you treat his god right then his god will treat you right. It all depends on you. You are his god! Isn't this plain and simple humanism?

No wonder he could pack a building!

Adrian would not like my God. With cold indifference to the estranged sinner, Adam, He slit a crying innocent lambs throat and tore the fresh skin from it's still warm carcas, threw it at Adam and said, cover your shameful nakedness.

Adam stepped back from this awful display of bloddy ritualism. Had he ever seen blood before? One thing Adam knew for certain, he was a depraved individual and knew that to the core of his being.

WatchingHISstory said...

Adam did not know nor understand redemption. Before the fall he knew all he needed to know, but now he encounters something he didn't understand. How would God redeem Himself with Adam.

That would make Adam the first Calvinist! The one thing he knew and the one thing that all else would be built on was total depravity. He knew that!

That is the one thing we need to know today with certainty, we are totally depraved. We are sinners saved by grace.

The first thing a regenerated sinner should experience is an awareness of his wretched condition. The Holy Spirit alone produces this reality.

Without the Spirit you cannot communicate this truth to the sinner. He will not hear it!

oc said...

"The first thing a regenerated sinner should experience is an awareness of his wretched condition. The Holy Spirit alone produces this reality."

What happens after that, Charles?

WatchingHISstory said...

Acts 2:37 gives a hint.

"Men and brethern what shall we do?" (they wanted to be filled with the Holy spirit as they had seen the brethern)

Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. And ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

oc said...

Then what?
What about all this "sanctification" stuff?
What does that look like?

Anthony said...


Righteousness is imputed and imparted, would you agree?

If one confesses a believe that righteousness has been imputed to their account, is there not a corresponding imparted righteousness to bear witness to such?

Or as OC put it, 'that sanctification stuff'.

Describing your mind's envisioning of a brutal rape is God's work? Profanity riddled commentary is 'holy spirit led'? Critizing Adrian Roger's wife and blaming her for the church's woes is a 'godly' endeavor?

Imparted righteousness is evidenced by doing righteousness.

Blatently sinning and calling it righteousness only reveals the lack of such.

If God freed you from the tragic 'pie in the face' incident to be what he wanted you to be, and this is what 'you be', praytell, what where you before?

Of all the people I know that believe in the doctrines of grace, I do not know one whose endeavors remotely resemble the darkness and basic meanness that yours display. Truth that doesn't change the heart is hardly truth at all.

You well said that the spirit reveals the wretchedness of sin to the regenerated sinner...but is this all? Aren't the new affections given to the heart to love the Lord accompanied by a hatred of sin and not just a revelation of it?

Do you hate it? Then flee from it instead of basking in it. Repent of it instead of rejoicing in it. Have you never heard that a froward mouth is an abomination to the Lord, that this he hates.

Do you not believe that corrupt fruit is produced by a corrupt tree? Do you not believe the woes pronounced unto those who call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter?

Do you not believe that the righteous should think on whatsoever things are true, honest, just, pure, lovely, of good report, of virtue and praise?

Do you think your marathon
" expose' " of the Rogers and the continual wonderment of child rape qualify as these things?

Do you not know that wisdom begins with fearing the Lord? Have you no fear?

One who has imputed righteousness displays imparted righteousness.

Anthony Johnson

WatchingHISstory said...


Your words give you away. You are very religious and insightful. You remind me of Job's friends.

Aparently you don't get it either.
So let me respond by the same old same old. Paul Williams fucked his own son (notice I did not use his name) for 12-18 months.

Bellevue called it a moral failure.
Mayber my logic does not match your deductions but I believe that calling homosexuality a "moral failure" amounts to a sin in God's eyes, especially if this pronouncement comes from a denomination that has seemingly taken a strong stand against homosexuality. Paying lawyers thousands of dollars to come up with "egregious, perverse sexual activity" is a sin. Covering up for a church, seeking to protect it's repretation rather than exposing the sin for what it is, is a sin.

Anthony, it is homosexual child rape by an ordained associate pastor working with Adrian Rogers at Bellevue Baptist in Memphis, Tennessee. The church with the three large lighted crosses on I-40.

Now pardon me if you think the imputed righteousness of Christ has not been a factor in my "marathon." My election was before the foundations of the world were laid; my regeneration and baptism took place at ten years old and the love of God has been shed abroad in my heart by the Holy Ghost. My santification is ongoing and I can't wait for glorification!

WatchingHISstory said...

I understand though what you mean about 'connecting' (my inference). However, would you not agree that rather than try to come across as an 'everyday Joe', he would be better served by preaching the true gospel, instead of the counterfeit that supposes salvation is conditioned on the sinner? Surely this is not what you think(or hope) that he 'will reach' the city with, is it?

And if his 'common man' approach somehow resonates with the city, what good is accomplished then if they are still only exposed to a false gospel?

Also, if congregational authority is somehow restored by some monumental(and unlikely) reversal of ecclesiastical direction, is it not only a resolution to the 2nd biggest problem.

I agree with the premise of many of your previous posts in that reforming church polity is only of benefit if it proceeds from a correction of theology. You may have not stated it just so, but that was what I gleaned.

Anthony Johnson

conflicting messages, ace

Anthony said...


Who has covered up this sin? Is it hidden? Who does not know that it was committed?

They can call it whatever they like, but it still doesn't change the fact that it happened. And you feel that describing it again and again in your own presumptive graphic detail is going to do what?
Blaming Adrian and Joyce Rogers for fostering this atrocity will accomplish what?

Imputed righteousness is evidenced by imparted righteousness. Imparted righteousness does righteousness. How does gutterspeak reckon itself to be righteousness? How does your newly founded pastime of going after Joyce Rogers show righteousness? What of their children? Grandchildren? Certainly you can attribute to them a measure of blame also. Why not incorporate a full blown scorched earth policy?

And as for the cut and paste of my previous comments, I stand by it wholeheartedly. What you are doing bears no semblance to that.

As for being insightful and religious, probably not. And BTW, Job was not dropping F-bombs on the internet while graphically describing child rape and calling it spirit-led.

When confronted on any item, you attribute it to being attacked or persecuted and throw out a biblical name for comparison.
That is only meet when you are attacked for righteousness' sake. Doesn't apply.

Anthony Johnson

WatchingHISstory said...

It was hidden from AR and I am convinced that this was not just a coincidence that he didn't know.
God with held the knowledge from him. Gen 18:17

Many have ask me what do I hope to accomplish? My answer is the Lord knows that and I am just obedient to what he says. I don't recall my idependently acusing Adrian and Joyce of anything. The Lord started this not me!

The mess that AR left for SG is the atrocity I assume you are speaking about. Isn't this reflective of their leadership?
Apparently Joyce doesn't think so.
(where is your compassion for Steve and Donna and their children
Why is it ok to spend time going after them as NASS does every day)

I assume that you are comparing me to yourself when you judge my imparted righteousness. Isn't imparted righteousness an impartation from God just as imputed righteousness is? or do you think that it is a production of yourself?

Obviously your impartations are true, honest, just, pure, lovely, of good report, worthy of virtue and praise? Isn't this a relativistic rampant judgment and a denial of absolute truth since you set yourself up as judge and jury over my imparted righteousness?

And how do you know that Job was not dropping F-bombs on those who killed his family and when he was scrapping the boils off his body?
Is this also a relative judgment void of absolutes designed to produce doom on me? How convenient!

BTW, I assume that the language spoken by Job was not clean as English is. His was a not-so-polite language designed to communicate truth plainly and not politely. We do not use the words they use. The queen, not the Lord, forbids it. People like Paul Williams appreciate the intentions of the queen.

There ace, I have now attacked the queen! The queen bears a fault in this false gospel that AR preached.

Maybe I'll scorch the whole earth.
Well, if God tells me to.

oc said...

Yes Anthony. You understood. Yet he did not seem to catch on to the "sanctification" hint I gave him. But I see that doesn't matter to him.

oc said...

And Anthony? Forget about him answering any "hard" questions pertaining to himself. He just wants to deflect and concentrate on any and everybody else's percieved sins. It's much more comfortable and convenient for him to believe himself above all others. He believes he's got God in a box.

WatchingHISstory said...


You are funny!

OK let me get this straight because I (I am trying to keep a straight face) don't believe you and Ace, I am somehow "not right".

If I would just admit that you are both right I would be the greatest guy in the world like you both! And to top it all God himself would be able to escape the box I have put him in!

You are about as bad as Joyce and I am not in a position for you to harm me as Steve and Donna have by her.

oc, seems you are trying to put me in a box. OC, you are not that smart!

Wait till your harley comes to a full stop before you get off it! You will hurt yourself and damage the scooter.

oc said...

Although you attempt to insult me, I will yet pray for you.
Your retort just proves that you are walking on your own. Where did you take that fork in the path?

WatchingHISstory said...

for your own good you should stop commenting.

I did not attempt to insult you. you reveal your own stupidity and I merely mirrowed it!

If you want me to stop insulting you then I beg of you to stop acting stupid.

Simply the question is did AR misrepresent the truth of the sovereignty of God in attempting to deal with the ongoing redefining the BF&M?

Just comment to the topic of the post without becomming emotionally

The topic is "dear SBC" and Ar's letter to them. Address the post! simple.

If you and ace would stick to the topic I would not be making these
dreadful but truthful retorts.

It becomes entertaining to lurkers who drop in to my blog and distrubing to anyone looking for the truth.

You are doing nothing but helping my blog and I know you do not want to do that! Thanks anyway.

oc said...

Yeah, if I was you, I would not want anyone with any sense commenting about that either.
There might be something said that you cannot be god over.

But let's get back to the heart of the matter. Tell me all about the big "S" word that you furiously run from.

WatchingHISstory said...

comment off topic

however if you are interested google the "S" word and read all about it. Don't expect me to be your mentor!

oc said...

No, I certainly would look to you for any description for the term "sanctification".

I believe that's my point.

Thanks for making that so easy.

oc said...

Got any of that?

WatchingHISstory said...

No, I certainly would look to you for any description for the term "sanctification".

mirror, mirror on the wall. . .

please stop posting, oc

You are attracting lurkers for me and I thank you!!!

oc said...

And it is so telling. You can't make an account for what you proclaim.

You can't answer the "sanctification" question.
Very telling.

WatchingHISstory said...


I am weak and can't say no to you!
so if you insist. The definition of sanctification is that characterist that Joyce Rogers did not possess when she walked out on Steve Gaines. Her outward work demonstrated that she had not the positional nature that resulted from the inward work of sanctification that alone comes from God.

oc said...

Don't really care about that.
How about yours?

WatchingHISstory said...


I am under Christ's perfection positionally and a work of ongoing grace practically.

I'll bet in your eyes yours is better than mine, naturally! However, you can't improve on perfection!

oc said...

Then I can only assume from your avoidance of the question that you believe there is no such thing as sanctification.

oc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.