In May I sent an e-mail to a representative of the Memphis GLBT Community:
"I have a question that perplexes me constantly. It concerns the situation with Bellevue Baptist's response to it's own associate sexually abusing his own young son for 12-18 months and being dismissed as just a "moral failure". Given their conservative slant they failed to act accordingly. The "moral failure" was a crime and the son did not pursue criminal charges, the Church did not treat the issue as a crime. The state investigated and we have not heard the result from them.
I have ask a diverse number of people from many walks of life and I would like to hear your response.
This was the answer ("The opinions in the GLBT community are as varied as the people therein. The above sentiments are mine and mine alone.")
"The problems of pedophilia and ephebophilia are ones that span all sexual and gender orientations. The occurrence you reference happens to be about an adult and a child of the same gender. These occurrences often do not occur within a same gender context and consequently I cannot consider these terrible incidents primarily GLBT issues. But being a human being, I cannot help but have strong feelings of disgust when I learn that the basic inequity of power that is present between an adult and a minor is exploited by the adult.
So I am conflicted. From one perspective, I do not wish to pass judgment on this denomination and this particular church's handling of this affair. From another perspective, however, I am deeply grieved by the pain of the child involved. When learning of this incident, I made a personal choice to leave it to the authorities who are, hopefully, better able to help this child in this incident and address the larger issues as well.
Fortunately, there are many denominations that have long decided to deal successfully with both matters ... First, they have resolved the matter of giving GLBT persons their rightful place in the church community. Second, they have resolved the entirely separate matter of child and minor sexual abuse by following a rigid adherence to a zero tolerance policy and a policy of immediate reporting to authorities. The churches, synagogues and mosques that have done both have my deepest respect.
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Pervert said: In May I sent an e-mail to a representative of the Memphis GLBT Community:
"I have a question that perplexes me constantly. It concerns the situation with Bellevue Baptist's response to it's own associate sexually abusing his own young son for 12-18 months and being dismissed as just a "moral failure". Given their conservative slant they failed to act accordingly. The "moral failure" was a crime and the son did not pursue criminal charges, the Church did not treat the issue as a crime. The state investigated and we have not heard the result from them.
I have ask a diverse number of people from many walks of life and I would like to hear your response.
This was the answer ("The opinions in the GLBT community are as varied as the people therein. The above sentiments are mine and mine alone.")
We didn't know you were a member of the GLBT community Charles! Do the guys you work with at the hub know?
GLBT: Fortunately, there are many denominations that have long decided to deal successfully with both matters ... First, they have resolved the matter of giving GLBT persons their rightful place in the church community. Second, they have resolved the entirely separate matter of child and minor sexual abuse by following a rigid adherence to a zero tolerance policy and a policy of immediate reporting to authorities. The churches, synagogues and mosques that have done both have my deepest respect.
Reply: We agree on #2! Everyone who knew about Paul Williams should have reported him. No one did until it became public knowledge and it was not anyone on staff at Bellevue.
Now what say you about #1 Charles? What is the "rightful place" for GLBT persons in the church community?
Charles,
This is a serious question. No disrespect intended. Your new poll asks if it was justifiable for Joyce Rogers to leave Bellevue. Assuming you think it wasn't, was it justifiable for you to leave the ministry? If it was then why is it not okay for Joyce Rogers to attend whatever church she pleases?
This was a personal view of the person who responded to me and not the view of his community.
I disagreed with the first. There is no rightful place in the church for those who practice homosexuality. There is plenty of room for thoes struggling with temptations and thoes who are sympathetic to their struggle.
You still need to convince me you are sincere and are bent on disrespect however I will answer your question AGAIN (I answered tnlizzie) A new pastor drove to my church from the the headquarters in Chattanooga and announced that he was the new pastor, unbeknownst to me. The reason was that the church was delinquent with the financial obgligations to the headquarters.
I had run the sinners off which they were excited about at the time but when they realized that the sinners were tithe payers they were not excited anymore.
Now the sinners are back paying tithes and Chattanooga is happy!
My case is far far different from Joyce Rogers. I don't expect that you will see that though.
Can you see any Pelagianism in my actions?
Pervert let see if I understand this correctly? I almost spewed my coffee over my keyboard. I am being sincere.
As Pstor of the church you got fired from, you ran off the sinners? What does that say to the membership and unsaved? NO SINNERS ALLOWED HERE! Yep no room for forgivness, repentance in your GAWD's religion.
Please Chuckie give me a break. Tell me you are not serious. If what you said is true how do sinners get saved and don't give me any of that Calvin crap. Calvin had nothing to do with the Cross and Christ.
It must be nice in your little world to no longer be a sinner.
Man you are not only a coward but extremely foolish. Thanks for the laugh of the week.
anon 10:04 again...
I am NOT bent on disrespect, Charles. I asked why it was okay for you to leave the ministry, not one particular church. If someone is called to the ministry and is forced to leave a church as you say you were, then shouldn't he find another church to pastor? You left the ministry. Isn't that far more serious than a widow lady moving her membership to a different church? I don't understand all this talk about "Pelagianism" or what it has to do with what church Joyce Rogers chooses to attend. Why should she be required to stay in a church where she doesn't feel welcome? These are sincere questions. Thanks Charles.
anon 10:04 again...
Could you please explain your poll question about "enabling grace" Charles? I don't understand it.
That would give away the poll but I will explain anyway as no one responds to polls that require thought just emotions! No disrespect intended.
SBC enabling grace is the same as Wesleyan prevenient grace. It is a grace to prepare the sinner to make a decision for Christ which in his sinful state he could not do. It prevents depravity from hindering a decision. It creates an island of righteousness. As far as I can tell the differences have to do with the extent of this grace. Dr Rogers never distinguished the elect comming forward but a universal call to all and this grace must be universally given to all alike. This would place him closer to Finney. Wesley, I believe would say that this grace is given to the elect making him closer to Calvinism.
If you vote that enablement is after regeneration then you are Calvinist. If you vote that it is preparation for regeneration then you are non-Calvinist.
There goes the poll!!
I am biased against Church hoppers so that colors my judgment. You stay in a Church even if you don't feel welcome. That bothers me even if it is Joyce Rogers. There is not a more shallow reason for leaving a Church because you don't feel. . .what does that say to Christians today? We have a smoorgasboard of churches to choose from and this is bad for Christianity.
You are perhaps correct to point out the conflict in my situation. I did not just up and leave the ministry. It was a long process which evolved over many years. I was struggling a long time with remaing in an Arminian/Wesleyan Church. I tried to switch to Assembly of God but the Arminianism was worst there.
I just gave up! For a long time (15 years) I felt guilt for giving up but now I have found that it was not me giving up but God moving me to a different ministry. This ministry, blogging. It has brought me more peace and joy than I have ever realized a minister could have. I work at FedEx with a captive audience to evangelize. I don't have to coerce hypocrites to give to my ministry or my church. I don't have a heirarchy to report to (that does not mean a heirarchy is bad but it does imply that there just seems to not be a heirarchy worth reporting to!)
I report directly to God. I don't need a mentor, I have the Holy Spirit to teach me all things. I have the earthly essentials, knowledge and experience (and a computer ha!), in abundant supply and the Spirit confirms the Word daily.
God has blessed me with personal revelations and has promised me that my ministry will meet with success.
Now back to Joyce, isn't her public insult directed toward Steve Gaines' intergrity a blemish in Dr Rogers' legacy. Isn't the assumption that her husband was above being investigated a vestige of Pelagianism, an island of righteousness untouched by human sin. Wasn't this pharisacial? Wasn't that pretensious?
Charles I would be the last to call your blogging posts a "new ministry". Tell me you are kidding. Do you really think your porn and filth posts are edifying to the body? I am serious too. How can they be? Please answer that one question.
I love it how at times you try to be nice and sweet sounding while all along you have your own agenda and it has nothing to do with those so-called "revelations or visions". Shame you did not have those when you were a pastor. Same arguments could be made about your methods and theology thinking while you were a pastor as you do on Dr. Rogers then. You say he did not see things as he should have, same for you isn’t it, where is the difference? Why didn’t you see it then? Are you telling us the Holy Spirit was not talking to you when you were a pastor? I talk to the Holy Spirit every day and the Holy Spirit talks to me every day, whether I am in step or not.
To try and make up the ridiculous reasons and assumptions you have as to why Ms. Rogers left Bellevue is just another example of your hatred and jealously of Adrian Rogers. Maybe she felt it was time to leave, simple as that. But unlike you she joined the membership at Faith. As I understand you are just a “lurker” at FBC. Why haven’t you joined the family of believers at FBC? Isn't it way past time to jump in?
Charles as we say in Mississippi, that dog just won’t hunt.
Cakes
where is your religious tolerance now? Is oc a disciple of yours?
Let's see religious t-o-l-e-r-a-n-c-e. Tolerant of others' views. Well cakes! Toleration! See how tolerant I am. I am a sweet boy undistrubed by emotive out burst by your disciple.
Aren't you proud of me?
I have the fruit of the spirit guiding me. longsuffering
anon 10:04 again...
I'm afraid the poll is still over my head. Maybe that's why no one else has voted. Maybe it's over everyone's head.
I don't know that Mrs. Rogers didn't still feel welcome at BBC. I'm sorry. That was a poor choice of words on my part. Maybe as the previous anon said, she felt it was time to go. Why should she be any more obliged to stay at BBC than anyone else? Why do you care that she left BBC? No offense Charles but it's really none or your business or mine that she left BBC or the reasons why she left.
The other anon asked an interesting question. Why haven't you joined the body of believers at First Baptist Collierville? You call it your church and you call their pastor your pastor. Why do you not feel led to join? I guess if you can criticize Joyce Rogers for leaving BBC I can ask you that. I don't think changing churches once in 35 years could be called "church hopping." At least she joined another church.
anon 10:04 again...
Who is this "Cakes" person? What am I missing? Thanks.
good question
I would like to join but feel definitely led by God in not joining. Why, well you will have to ask him!
i do really have a problem with the BF&M and that problem is growing every day. I left Wesleyan theology and to join a church with almost the same views would be useless.
But i have been led definitely by God to attend, no question there. does that help?
go to my Bellevue links and click Bellevue's Buddhist for cakes report
angry anon
Yes this my ministry and what will really blow your mind is that you are one of my sheep! That is if you call yourself a Christian!
anon 10:04 again...
You say "I would like to join but feel definitely led by God in not joining."
I thought that's what you would say and that's good enough for me. Why can you not accept that maybe God led Mrs. Rogers to leave BBC and join Faith?
I said i cannot tell you why God has led me not to join neither can I speak to God leading Joyce Rogers.
It seems very obvious why she left Bellevue.
Sometimes very sweet ladies can issue cutting remarks and her uncalled for remark directed toward Steve Gaines' intergrity meant that she burned a bridge behind her and had no choice but to leave. She is leaving Bellevue Baptist! her church! She and her husband built it!
Charles,
You say "I said i cannot tell you why God has led me not to join neither can I speak to God leading Joyce Rogers."
Then you say "It seems very obvious why she left Bellevue.
Sometimes very sweet ladies can issue cutting remarks and her uncalled for remark directed toward Steve Gaines' intergrity meant that she burned a bridge behind her and had no choice but to leave. She is leaving Bellevue Baptist! her church! She and her husband built it!"
Reply: You contradict yourself Charles! Either you can speak or you can't but you can't have it both ways.
What cutting remarks did Mrs. Rogers make? I thought all she said on the radio show was that Paul Williams told her that Dr. Rogers didn't know. Whether you choose to believe Paul Williams or not what was so cutting about that?
Bellevue Baptist Church is a building. Dr. and Mrs. Rogers didn't build BBC. As for leaving her church it sounds more like her church left her.
I have to agree with the other anon that you seem to be very jealous of Dr. Rogers. You say you're only criticizing his theology. I don't buy that Charles. There are plenty of other living and dead preachers who shared Dr. Rogers' theology. If it were about theology you wouldn't have devoted a whole blog to tearing down Dr. Rogers and blaming his theology for the horrible things Paul Williams did. Paul Williams is responsible for his own actions. You would have called it the "Anti-Semi-Pelagian Blog" or the "Pro-Calvin Blog" and criticized men who are still here to defend themselves. Failing to destroy Dr. Rogers' memory you've now gone after his widow. I have to agree with the other anon...that's shameful.
Sweet Anon: What Charles fails to comprehend is what he is claiming to be a ministry in no ways lines up with God's Holy Word.
Seems if he was a true zealot he would go after the living pastors that preach the same message, maybe he could change them. But he only goes after the dead one and his dear widow. Man that takes guts. Does the word COWARD ring true?
And I firmly believe he has visited too many porn sites in doing his research. But why even visit those places in the first place? Garbage in, garbage out. You cannot take the filth of those sites in and not come away unaffected. And his twisted posts reflect it. If there is a good message there it is lost in all the crap he posts.
Yes he is a very jealous, insignificant man, he got fired without notice and I suspect without pay. He could not even manage his own church’s affairs properly and here is the dynamic pastor who is really spreading the Word and his church is growing leaps and bounds. Don’t you see how he is projecting his own failings on Dr. Rogers? It is not Dr. Rogers’ theology that was twisted but Charles’ theology was and that is why he was fired. He can make all the excuses he wants, we don’t believe him.
Now he goes after the widow. How would he feel if we went after his wife like he does Ms. Rogers? We all saw how upset he got when he thought he had been hacked. I am willing to bet his wife does not have any idea what he is into. Time will tell because she will find out. And very soon.
Joyce Rogers told WMC-TV News "Mr. Williams told me that himself, that my husband did not know." When asked why it was important that the public knew Dr. Rogers was unaware of the situation, Joyce Rogers replied, "I think it has to do with his integrity, and his manner of dealing with things like this. He would have dealt with it immediately."
The whole tone was a cut to Gaines but the last remark was a direct cut toward Gaines. It must have hurt Gaines, I know it would have me if I were Bellevue's pastor and she being who she was, Dr Rogers wife.
She severed ties with that remark before anyone had a chance to "run her off" No one wanted to run her off, especially Steve Gaines. She would have been an asset to the ministry there.
BTW I can see NASS' necessity of not allowing annonymous comments.
You can easily disquise your intentions and your comments.
But I, who am known by all, courageously transparent and not fearful of drive-bys who shoot and runn will continue allowing cowards to shoot.
Please give me a break Charles. You use words like "drive-by" and "shoot" as if you are under attack. That is so damn laughable like you are. Stop the poor me drama act. Now you are being a drama queen? It does not befit you.
Your words are being attacked. You typed them; not the dead pastor nor his widow, neither Paul Williams nor his victim. You have you only to blame; just you.
Can't you accept you were a failure was a pastor and that is why you were fired? It is as simple as that. It was so bad at your church; your members could not handle it locally they had to bring in the denominational leadership to remove you. If your members loved you so much they would have gone with you when you started a new church. What was your license to the Gospel revoked too? Bet it was.
Bottom like you like to think of yourself as being courageous when you are a sissy coward, all talk. What happened to all that talk from you and Folks Folly and what you were going to do to Paul Williams? I wonder what’s Paul’s reaction is going to be to your posts? Stay tunned. I still have that step ladder if you need it.
I think that you are disqualified to be a Pastor just like Paul Williams. What happened to you and him was done by your own hands; no one else.
so what is your point, anon
anon
I think you should show me some love instead of all the hate you are spewing. all these pot shots you are taking at me and my precious family. You are causing untold suffering on us and we don't know how much more we can bear.
We are comming to the end of our rope and we just don't know where to turn for comfort.
Please spare us your vengence and hate!
Show us some love!!!
Thanks for the laugh Chuckie. It won't work, since you have only thought about yourself when you pen as you have and that includes your family, you never thought of them either.
As you can tell playing the drama card does not work.
What about those polls on Ms. Rogers? Seems many people are disagreeing with you (49-1 and 9-1). Why is that?
Can't wait for your response that we are blinded, devoted followers. Say it aint't so Chuckie. Please be original and just say you were wrong just once and we might go away. Well maybe not.
Charles I do love you and pray for you hard as it may be at times. Trust me there is no vengence or hate here, just justice. I seem to remember that proverb you reap what you sow. So sow carefully Charles. So far you have been sowing cockaburrs.
"As for leaving her church it sounds more like her church left her."
Her Church never left her! She acted quickly to try to stop any speculations that her husband knew of the problem. Clearly if she had been wise she would just sit back and let the investigation proceed without her intrusion.
Now Steve Gaines was in deep problems himself and the Church he was pastoring. He was getting hit from all angles. Who knew what, when and where about this. In the middle of all this he has Mrs Rogers asking that her husband be cleared immediately.
What could he do? He could not grant that request. I'm sure he would have liked to but he could not.
She gets even more desperate and goes to WMC talks to reporters and then talks live on air with Mike Fleming. She is desperate. Why? What is the problem?
Why can't she wait the outcome and have the confidence that her husband will be cleared.
There are confidentiality agreements at Bellevue that raise suspicions as to what has gone on.
People have to be quiet there.
Listen, Steve Gaines has very little to do with these problems that are hidden at Bellevue. He is a victim of a large mess that he may have or may not have known about.
Everything points to some bigger problems at Bellevue than have been revealed.
These confidentiality agreements are not good for a church to have. They raise more problems than they solve. A church should have openness and tranparency. It should not harbor secrets.
Now that does not mean that every sin should be openly revealed there are counselor confidentiality that must be protected.
But if there are problems in the church financially or otherwise it should be open to the congregation.
Mrs Rogers acted foolishly and rashly and I have to ask what is she hiding?
oc
I love you too!!
The poll shows blind allegience and devotion. I am surprised that so many could be so blind.
There is strong sympathy and charisma there. I am not persuaded that I am wrong. In fact my belief grows stronger.
If there had been a few to side with me on the poll I would struggle with the fact that I could be wrong.
Rarely when I have stood alone like this have I been wrong! there is an obvious attempt to "poison the well" "throw Jacob in the well"
I'll bet there have been those who voted against me who were manipulated to vote.
I'll bet Steve Gaines knows I am right and even Joyce Rogers knows in her heart I am right. I'll bet Dr Rogers knows I am right.
You are free to vote your preference. I am right on this one!
Say it ain't so Chuckie!! "Everyone else is wrong and I am right." Wow!!
Please try answering a question for once. Was your license to the ministry revoked or did you ever have one? Which is it?
I mailed it into the state office.
Then later when I requested a transfer to the A/G they gladly gave me a good recomendation.
The A/G accepted that recomendation and ordained me.
"Everyone else is wrong and I am right." Wow!!
What a good feeling! I confess I have been wrong. Just today I went to the doctor for my appointment and it is not till dec 1!
There I am not all that perfect, just nearly!
I'll bet Steve Gaines knows I am right and even Joyce Rogers knows in her heart I am right. I'll bet Dr Rogers knows I am right.
I'll bet they couldn't care less what you think!
for sure AR cares! I'm sure SG cares but my guess is that JR is in denial and may pretend to not care.
Nah Chuck, I promise you they don't care what you think. You've fallen into the self importance trap where your crazy illusions have become delusions and you've become a legend in your own mind. You're a sick obsessed little man.
"I think you should show me some love instead of all the hate you are spewing. all these pot shots you are taking at me and my precious family. You are causing untold suffering on us and we don't know how much more we can bear.
We are comming to the end of our rope and we just don't know where to turn for comfort.
Please spare us your vengence and hate!
Show us some love!!!
Sincerely,
Adrian & Joyce Rogers
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